Summary
Overview
George Packer joins Sam Harris to discuss his Atlantic article 'America's Zombie Democracy,' arguing that the United States has effectively slid into authoritarianism. They explore how democratic institutions have become hollow shells persisting in name only, the unprecedented corruption of the Trump administration, and why so many Americans fail to recognize the severity of these changes. The conversation examines the erosion of the rule of law, congressional power, military independence, and the cultural dynamics that enable shameless corruption to flourish unchecked.
The Erosion of the Rule of Law
Packer identifies the weaponization of the Justice Department as a primary indicator of authoritarianism, pointing to the politically motivated indictment of James Comey as a glaring example. He argues that Trump has successfully transformed the Justice Department into a personal prosecution force against political enemies, breaking decades of post-Watergate norms around DOJ independence. When challenged with the counter-argument that Trump himself was prosecuted under Biden, Packer distinguishes the Manhattan DA case as the weakest charge while noting that stronger cases fell apart due to procedural adherence rather than political manipulation.
- Justice Department filed charges against James Comey in nakedly political way after series of prosecutors and grand jury initially refused
- If president can use Justice Department as personal police force against political enemies, a huge check against unaccountable power has been removed
- Manhattan DA case against Trump was weakest case but only successful one; stronger cases fell apart mainly for political reasons
- Merrick Garland's delay in naming special prosecutor and procedural adherence shows rule of law was still in place under Biden
" If the president can do that, can use the Justice Department as his personal police force, prosecution force to go after people he regards as his political enemies, that's a huge check against unaccountable power that's been taken down. "
Zombie Institutions: Congress, Justice, and Military
Packer explains the concept of "zombie democracy" as institutions that persist in form but have lost their essential functions. He identifies three critical institutions in decay: the Justice Department's independence is shattered, Congress has ceased asserting its constitutional powers over taxation and spending, and the Defense Department faces unprecedented attempts at partisan manipulation. The most dangerous may be Trump's efforts to weaponize the military, though Packer notes the armed forces maintain the strongest cultural resistance to politicization due to their deep code of nonpartisanship.
- Justice Department no longer maintains distinction between what Trump wants and what attorney general will do
- Congress stopped functioning as Congress, no longer asserting right to tax and spend; Trump can tax with tariffs and refuse to spend appropriated funds
- Trump can eliminate programs Congress legislated, beginning with USAID, without congressional pushback
- Republicans in Congress showing first signs of resistance over Epstein files after ceding all constitutional authority
- Military remains most inherently independent institution due to deep code of nonpartisanship, but Trump openly uses it for partisan purposes
" Congress has stopped functioning as Congress, and that happened before the shutdown ever came along. They no longer assert their right to tax and spend. Trump can tax with tariffs. Trump can spend or not spend if it's been appropriated and he decides he doesn't like it. "
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