All Podcasts / Making Sense with Sam Harris / #486 — Luck All the Way Down
Making Sense with Sam Harris
Making Sense with Sam Harris

#486 — Luck All the Way Down

July 22, 2026 • 21m

Summary

⏱️ 7 min read

Overview

Sam Harris and behavioral geneticist Kathryn Paige Harden revisit their contentious history from six years ago, when Harden co-authored a Vox piece criticizing Harris's podcast with Charles Murray about race and IQ. They discuss how both have since faced similar attacks for their work in behavioral genetics, the evolution of political discourse around wokeness, and dive into Harden's new book on genetics, vice, blame, and forgiveness. The conversation explores why behavioral genetics remains controversial, the nature-nurture debate, and the future implications of genetic science for society.

Revisiting the Charles Murray Controversy

Harris and Harden reexamine their 2018 conversation that followed a major controversy around Harris's podcast with Charles Murray. Harris explains how he was labeled a racialist pseudoscientist after defending Murray's right to speak on college campuses, leading to attacks from Vox and Ezra Klein. He reveals lingering frustration about being placed on the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate watch list and connects this episode to the rise of Trump as a backlash against wokeness. Harden acknowledges that rereading their original Vox piece surprised her with how much it attacked Harris personally rather than focusing purely on scientific disagreements.

  • Harris interviewed Charles Murray two years after Murray was physically assaulted on a college campus, focusing on free speech rather than the race and IQ topic itself
  • Harris was castigated as a racialist pseudoscientist and ended up on the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate watch page
  • Ezra Klein counted the racial diversity of Harris's podcast guests and recommended he read Ibram X. Kendi to address his alleged racism
  • Harris blames wokeness and intolerance for contributing to Trump's election and the energized right-wing backlash
" I blame all of this for many things, but chief among them that we have a President Trump now and a highly weaponized and energized right wing now that is a backlash to wokeness and the kind of intolerance and moral panic I think I was discovering there. "

Harden's Reflection and Apology

Harden shares her evolution after rereading the 2017 Vox piece she co-authored criticizing Harris. She admits being surprised at how much the article attacked Harris personally rather than focusing solely on scientific disagreements with Murray, acknowledging it was her first public piece and she's learned important lessons since. She expresses regret for wading into debates about media ethics and platforming rather than sticking to her expertise in genetics and IQ, and offers empathy for what Harris experienced after seeing similar attacks directed at her own work.

  • Harden was unpleasantly surprised rereading how much of the original Vox piece attacked Harris rather than just addressing scientific points
  • It was Harden's first non-academic piece of writing, and she's learned that author intentions don't matter as much as what's actually in the text
  • Harden regrets wandering into debates about media ethics and wokeness rather than limiting herself to her scientific expertise
  • The strategy of policing who talks to whom to stem far-right extremism 'hasn't really seemed to work' over the past nine years
  • After facing similar attacks herself, Harden now has more empathy for Harris's situation and apologizes for the discomfort caused
" I had no intention of wandering into a like Ezra Klein v Sam Harris debate about wokeness and media ethics in that period of time. And I would have limited myself much more to what am I actually an expert in, which is not what are the ethics of being a large podcaster in a time of both racial tension and declining norms around free speech. "
" In 2017, I don't think I was alone in thinking that maybe if people like Murray were, you know, not so influential in terms of their views on science, that that might kind of stem the tide of a certain set of beliefs. And in retrospect, all of that seems just very quaint to me. "

📚 3 more sections below

Sign up to unlock the complete summary with all insights, key points, and quotes

Listen on Apple Podcasts More Episodes from Making Sense with Sam Harris