Summary
Overview
This episode features an in-depth interview with Dan Wong, author of 'Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future,' exploring why Western nations struggle to build infrastructure while China excels. Wong introduces the concept of 'lawyerly societies' versus 'engineering states,' arguing that the US and UK have become paralyzed by legal processes designed for 1960s problems of overbuilding, while facing today's crisis of underdevelopment. The conversation examines China's engineering-focused governance, the tradeoffs of both systems, and what Western nations might learn without emulating China's authoritarian approach.
Introduction: Britain's Building Crisis
The episode opens by examining the stark reality that Britain takes an average of 12.5 years to build significant infrastructure, with 10 years typically spent just in planning. Projects like Crossrail took 30 years end-to-end, while environmental impact assessments now run to 30,000 pages and take seven years to approve. This inability to build anything is presented as explaining not just economic problems but political ones too, introducing the concept that Western societies have become 'lawyerly societies' where legal means always determine the ends.
- UK takes average of 12.5 years to build significant infrastructure, with 10 years in planning alone
- Crossrail took 30 years end-to-end, Hinkley Point 17 years and counting
- Environmental impact assessments now run to 30,000 pages, taking 7 years to write and approve
- The UK spent £100 million on a bat tunnel
" Look around you and the chances are you will see in the lived environment of wherever you live, of wherever you are right now, more of the 19th century than the 21st. "
" What if our society has become in effect government of the lawyers by the lawyers for the lawyers? What if our problem is that we are now a loyally society rather than a building one? "
The Lawyerly Society vs Engineering State Framework
Dan Wong explains his central thesis distinguishing between 'engineering states' like China, where leadership has engineering degrees and prioritizes building infrastructure, and 'lawyerly societies' like the US and UK, where leaders trained in law create systems that block rather than enable construction. He traces how most early US presidents practiced law, and five of the last ten went to law school, creating a governing paradigm focused on limitations rather than possibilities. The contrast is stark: China's entire senior leadership at various points had engineering degrees, treating both infrastructure and the economy as engineering exercises.
- At various points, China's entire senior leadership had engineering degrees; Xi Jinping has a degree in chemical engineering
- 13 of America's first 16 presidents practiced law; 5 of the last 10 US presidents went to law school
- Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter were the only two engineer presidents in US history, both remembered for failures
- Engineers treat the economy as an engineering exercise, directing talent toward strategic sectors like aviation and semiconductors
" I call China an engineering state because at various points in the recent past, the entirety of the senior leadership had degrees in engineering. "
" The issue with lawyers is that they block absolutely everything. And so you don't have stupid ideas like the one-child policy. You also don't have functional infrastructure almost anywhere in the U.S. "
" Maybe the only thing stranger than the lawyerly society is the PPE society you've got over here. Isn't it very strange that all the prime ministers study PPE at Oxford University, especially at Balliol College? "
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