Summary
Overview
Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair's former director of communications, joins Trigonometry for an in-depth discussion on populism, immigration, wokeism, and the state of British politics. The conversation explores why populism has gained traction, with Campbell arguing it's a form of politics that exploits rather than solves problems. They debate the Labour Party's relationship with working-class voters, the impact of mass immigration, two-tier policing concerns, and whether progressive policies have alienated traditional Labour supporters. Campbell defends the Blair government's record while acknowledging mistakes, and offers his perspective on how democracies can push back against populist movements.
Defining Populism and Its Rise
Campbell defines populism as politics that seeks to exploit rather than solve problems, distinguishing it from the traditional 'people versus elite' framing. He traces the roots of modern populism back to the 2008 financial crash and even earlier to China's entry into the World Trade Organization. The crash created a dynamic of 'socialism for the banks and austerity for the people' that opened the door for populist figures like Trump and Farage to exploit public anger. Campbell argues that populists are better organized globally than the center-left, despite their nationalist rhetoric.
- Campbell defines populism as exploiting problems rather than solving them, not as 'people versus elite'
- The 2008 financial crash was a massive driver of populism, creating 'socialism for banks, austerity for people'
- China joining the WTO and subsequent job losses contributed to American populism
- Populists are globally organized despite promoting nationalism
" I define populism as a form of politics that seeks to exploit rather than solve. That's my view of populism. "
" What you had was socialism for the banks and austerity for the people. The banks who caused it and then the people who didn't. "
Immigration Policy and Its Political Consequences
The conversation shifts to immigration as a major driver of populism. They discuss how net immigration to Britain surged from 55,000 annually in 1996 to hundreds of thousands, with government predictions dramatically underestimating the impact of EU expansion. Campbell acknowledges mistakes in managing public expectations but pushes back on the framing that immigration itself is the problem versus how it's been exploited politically. The debate reveals fundamental tensions between economic needs, cultural concerns, and policy outcomes.
- Net immigration was only 55,000 annually in 1996 when only 3% saw it as a major issue
- Government predicted 13,000 would come from new EU countries; approximately one million came
- Campbell argues the debate became swamped with exaggerated figures and consequences
- Both Labour and Conservative governments repeatedly promised to reduce immigration but failed
" Should they be coming into this country? No. Should we as a country have legal, decent, humane routes for people who, like we did for Ukrainians or like we've done through time for people genuinely fleeing persecution, there should be. "
" If you'd fix the facts, there'd be nothing to exploit. "
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