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Freakonomics Radio

How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person

September 02, 2026 • 37m

Summary

⏱️ 11 min read

Overview

In this conversation, Anne Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum, and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, discuss the challenges and rewards of leading cultural and educational institutions during an era of declining trust in institutions. They explore topics including museum accessibility, university costs, responding to October 7th and its aftermath, free speech on campus, the role of AI in education and museums, and what makes their jobs both difficult and deeply meaningful.

Leading Institutions in an Anti-Institution Era

Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth discuss what it's like to run major cultural institutions at a time when public trust is eroding. Pasternak counters that museums remain among the most trusted public institutions, with criticisms coming primarily from within the arts community rather than the general public. Both leaders acknowledge the challenges but emphasize the purposeful and joyous aspects of their work, particularly in creating spaces where diverse communities can gather and engage with difficult ideas.

  • Museums remain among the most trusted public institutions according to recent surveys, with criticism coming primarily from within the arts community
  • Brooklyn Museum models its values of inclusion by confronting uncomfortable truths while also being a place of joy
  • Pasternak describes her role as sometimes feeling like a punching bag but mostly joyous and purposeful
  • The Brooklyn Museum serves as a rare public space where people of all backgrounds can come together for meaningful experiences
" I think people are looking at the Brooklyn Museum as a place that really models what its values are. So, for example, we talk about inclusion, but we don't just talk about it. We model it. "

The Brooklyn Museum's Mission and Financial Reality

Pasternak explains that the Brooklyn Museum represents 5,500 years of human creativity as an encyclopedic museum, though it operates with one of the smallest endowments of any major museum in the country at just over $200 million. Despite financial constraints, the museum maintains a pay-what-you-wish admission policy, with more than half of visitors paying nothing. This creates what Pasternak jokes is "the worst business model" but results in extraordinary economic and demographic diversity among visitors.

  • Brooklyn Museum has collections representing 5,500 years of human creativity from people all over the world
  • The museum has one of the smallest endowments of major museums at just over $200 million
  • More than half of museum visitors pay nothing due to pay-what-you-wish admission policy
  • New York City is rare in having two encyclopedic museums (Brooklyn Museum and the Met)
" I always joke that we have the worst business model and we're proud of it because it creates all this diversity within the institution, economic diversity, gender, you know, create all of it. "

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