Summary
Overview
Joe Rogan speaks with John Marks, author of 'Project Mind Control,' about the CIA's MKUltra program and its predecessor OSS experiments. The conversation explores the extensive drug experiments, mind control attempts, psychological manipulation techniques, and the lack of oversight that allowed these programs to operate. They discuss key figures like Sidney Gottlieb and George White, the horrific experiments conducted on unwitting citizens, and the lasting impacts on victims. The discussion also covers related topics including government conspiracies, intelligence agency operations, cult psychology, memory manipulation, and the challenges of historical research.
Introduction to MKUltra and the Book Project
Joe Rogan introduces his fascination with MKUltra, particularly after reading Tom O'Neill's 'Chaos.' John Marks discusses his new book on MKUltra and how David Chase has optioned it for a series adaptation. They establish the scope of MKUltra - 149 subprojects with essentially no oversight, where American citizens were used as guinea pigs in mind control experiments, and remarkably, no one went to jail for these crimes.
- David Chase has optioned the book about MKUltra for a series adaptation
- MKUltra involved 149 subprojects with essentially no oversight
- The CIA performed these experiments on American citizens and nobody went to jail
- Tom O'Neill's book 'Chaos' revealed the full extent of MKUltra's involvement in American society
" You know, I really got – and I knew about it, but I really didn't get completely obsessed with it until Chaos, Tom O'Neill's book. And when you realize what the MKUltra program involved and how long it ran and how insane it is, and it essentially had no oversight, and these people were just running these wild mind experiments on American citizens, and nobody went to jail for it. "
Sidney Gottlieb and the Origins of MKUltra
Marks explains how MKUltra began when Sidney Gottlieb, who had no expertise in mind control, was tasked with figuring out how to control people's minds. Gottlieb looked to earlier OSS experiments conducted by Stanley Lovell during WWII as his blueprint. The program evolved from WWII-era truth drug experiments using substances like THC acetate, with participants like Harry Anslinger ironically overseeing drug experiments while simultaneously crusading against marijuana.
- Sidney Gottlieb had no expertise in mind control when assigned to lead MKUltra
- Gottlieb used Stanley Lovell's OSS files as a blueprint for MKUltra experiments
- OSS conducted truth drug experiments during WWII using THC acetate in cigarettes
- Harry Anslinger, who crusaded against marijuana, oversaw THC drug experiments
" Just imagine being a government agency, the CIA, the OSS, whatever it is, and then someone says, hey, figure out if we can control people's minds. And that's where you start from, right? It's not like Sidney Gottlieb was some expert hypnotist or really was a psychologist or really understood human minds. No, they started a program going, what can we do? How can we fuck with people's minds? How can we figure out how to control people's minds? And they did it for decades. "
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